Somali girl 'pleaded for mercy' before Islamists stoned her to death for being raped

This is foul. As much as I know this occurs on a regular basis around the world, it sickens me every time.

I remember the Saudi girl a year ago.  At that time, I couldn't imagine a more evil response from authorities.

The common atrocities are cutting the breasts off of nursing mothers, so they cannot feed their young.  This is done if someone converts to Christianity.  They are marked so they cannot work.  A trumped up charge is leveled against them and the bread winner is put in jail. 

I have no problem with a culture war...

I say forced, multi generational, re-education

thedoctori:

Nor did I say all muslims.  I said ISLAM.  I am afraid that Islam is a religion which lends itself to this type of action and belief.

Much of that reason, I believe, is that it came from a conqueror, it is a religion created during war.

With christianity, certainly the New Testament, one must "pervert" the religion to get to certain horrific actions.  With Islam, that is just not as true.

Ayan Hirsi Ali is an atheist.

I wonder why....  /sarc

Nor did I say all muslims.  I said ISLAM.  I am afraid that Islam is a religion which lends itself to this type of action and belief.

With christianity, certainly the New Testament, one must "pervert" the religion to get to certain horrific actions.  With Islam, that is just not as true.

I do not agree that Islam lends itself to this type of behavior. We are at a point in history that we see this behavior more commonly perpetrated by those of Islamic faith.

However, historically Christianity has been "perverted" probably more so than any other religion, leading to countless atrocities. Just look at acts that were committed within the Vatican, that no one at the time saw as a perversion of the religion. The Pope, Bishops, Cardinals for a good chunck of time "devirginized" (raped) young girls and this was accepted by the families and the religious community.

Wait, what year is this?

Just look at acts that were committed within the Vatican,

just a little tip, this is called the twenty first century. Christendom has grown.

 Islam--? still waiting and hoping for the best

Read Leviticus.  The Bible advocates justice of the same stripe.

Read a newspaper.  Christians don't treat people that way.

I am not suggesting that the overwhelming majority of Christians would ever do anything even on the same spectrum as anything like this.  By the same token, I know a great many Muslims here in Los Angeles, and I can't imagine them acting any differently than you or I in this regard.

My only point was that holy books often are written in absolutes by zealots.  They often reflect the primitive moral values of a primitive people in a primitive time.  While society continues to evolve and civilize, these books, unfortunately, are set in stone.

Almost all modern religious believers understand this and they apply their holy books to their lives today and find the result to be wise and inspirational.  However, extreme zealots of all stripes, Muslim, Christian, and others, want to go back to the literal word and meaning and apply the barbaric mores of long ago and far away into today's world. 

Most people today are not concerned with whether or not to "suffer a witch to live," as in Leviticus, which also proscribes homosexuality.  When the few extremists, no matter what they call us, commit the violent acts as in Somalia, they deserve the wrath of the world.  But I do not hold them in greater contempt than I do people who would exercise the same terrible authority if they were in a position to do so.

All of this is just a way of saying I am so grateful to have been born and to live in the United States, where I don't have to sit in a corner of my home with a loaded gun wondering who will knock on my door at night.

Before religion, men were the hunters and women were the gatheres.

Women were held in high esteem because they provided food and life, as in babies.

Religion came to civilization. Now women are subserviant and men rule.

WHY?

Because men want control. This is just like politics. Grabbing control.

I have been married for over 35 years to a great woman. We have worked together all this time with the acceptance that our strenghts and our weaknesses are shared with rational discussions. This is not about who is smarter, this is about who is more rational. There have been times where I knew more than my wife, but her rational ideas proved me right but her reasoning vetoed my direction. I accepted it.

Emotion can't be a controlling device. Reason and rational thought is more important than any religious doctrine.

The reason women were in control had more to do with the fact that nobody had connected the sexual act to childbirth, more than anything else. When this connection was first made, there was still no connection between semen and conception, so when a woman married, her first born child was ritually sacrificed "to the god(s)" because it was assumed that the father could have been anyone with whom she had previously copulated, including her immediate family, since, at that time, incest was not considered odd.

It's amazing what you can learn by studying a little sociology.

Once it was possible to establish paternity, however, all bets were off.  Since a large percentage of women died in childbirth, they were clearly the weaker sex and were soon reduced to mere chattel.

alec,

You're postulating a lot of stuff here. Do you have sources?  Do you have a point?  Does it relate to this event somehow?  This is 2008 and a 13 year old girl has been stoned to death after being blamed for her rape.

If your bio is true, you have a lot of education.  Frankly, I can't see how you're trying to relate all this info to this extreme injustice.  It sounds like you're offering justification for her killers and their sick culture.  Yes/no?

Ellie, I again admire your patience and reasonableness. You are a much bigger person than I.

You're the best worldknight.  Think it's time for me to turn in....  good night.

catch ya tomorrow, hopefully.

The co-mingling of ignorance, poverty, huge class-distinctions, constant political turmoil, post-colonization, globalization, and extremist ideologies (both religious and nationalist) and a history of sexual disparity and various tribal customs can lead to horrific, terrible and tragic events such as this.

To assign the horror solely to religion is to ignore history, secular culture, political and geopolitical movements, race, etc. etc. etc.

The problem with religion is it can justify the actions beyond logical debate.  But then if these other circumstances were not present, religion would also be more moderate.  Rule of law would trump extremism.  So this is a multi-faceted problem, which trancends Christianity or Islam, East and West, man and woman.

We should make no excuses for these actions, or for zealots who use their holy texts to oppress others.  But we should also think deeply about the historical context and current socio-economic conditions that allow such things to fester...

E.D.:

Agreed.

ElliePhat

One book that I recommend (although the author clearly has an agenda, there is a ton of factual basis) is Mythology's Last Gods by William Harwood.  I have read many more sources on the subject, but without getting out of my chair, this is the only one that comes to mind. :-)

I offer no justification for sick and disgusting acts, and do not care how the perpetrators attempt to justify their barbarism.  My only point was that I find all religions to be quite barbaric in their ancient texts.  I agree with you that almost all modern Christians are rightfully disgusted with stories like this.  But I also am pointing out that there are (hopefully) tiny "Christian" sects that espouse the same thing.

Islam, more than many other faiths, seems stalled in a medieval system.  I believe that when the Enlightenment reaches the corners of their nations, just as it did in Europe, things will rapidly change for the better.  But until that happens, we will still have Indian widows being thrown on funeral pyres, Christian Scientist children being denied access to medical care, and other things that I regard as abominations.

The Somali case warrants attention because it is so public and so outrageous.  But zealotry comes in many different stripes and we must always be vigilant to protect the rights of everyone, whether we agree with them or not.

But zealotry comes in many different stripes and we must always be vigilant to protect the rights of everyone, whether we agree with them or not.

I agree with that, of course, but why not also speak out LOUDLY against those who violate the rights of others? Its one thing to say one is in favor of rights for all peoples, but it would carry more weight to also speak out in clear condemnation of those who are violating! Where is the moderate muslim voice speaking out here?

EllieP

Read a newspaper. Christians don't treat people that way.

Yep no Christians act insane.

Soldier shot and killed for being an Atheist

The tipster that helped authorities break this missing person turned murder case said the alleged killer, Justin Green, described Ramirez as "a hateful man" because he "did not believe in the Lord."

No violence there right.

Tiller has been among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortion, making him a favored target of anti-abortion protesters. He testified that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats. His clinic was the site of the 1991 "Summer of Mercy" protests marked by mass demonstrations and arrests. His clinic was bombed in 1985, and an abortion opponent shot him in both arms in 1993.

Must be nice to for Christians to have such a peaceful religion in a non third world country.

What year is it?

What year did Dr. Tiller die? 2009

What year did an Atheist get shot for not believing in God? December 2005

Want me to find current Priests up on molestation charges? Get your own religion in line before assaulting others.

1. On what moral grounds do you base your accusations?

2. And the seeder should feel free to delete the following, but it addresses the falseness of the story quoted above.

http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2012/03/16/10725326-was-an-atheist-murdered-because-of-his-lack-of-faith

Socrates1,

1. I will not waste my time on your site Socrates1.

2. I see your not questioning the Tiller one are you?

3. I have no doubt he is an innocent. His sisters say her brother told her he shot them. His remains are at Greens previous residence along with bulletholes. And his sisters friend used his credit card after he died.

According to a criminal complaint, authorities found bullet holes in a bedroom wall and blood stains in a hallway. A day later, they searched the area around the home and found a human skull with bullet marks as well as a pair of shorts with the word "Army," the complaint said.

Authorities charged 30-year-old Justin Green with first-degree murder in February. Green, who once lived in the home where the bullet holes were found, remains in jail on $1 million bond and will appear in court Monday. His attorney did not return a phone message.

Clay County Sheriff Kenny Lemons said last month that authorities didn't know how Ramirez might have ended up near Petrolia, which is about 80 miles south of the base. Lemons said Ramirez likely died sometime in 2007.

Green and Ramirez both served together at Fort Sill, where Green spent five years before being discharged in July 2007.

Brittany Green allegedly told authorities that her brother said he had shot Ramirez twice because he "did not believe in God and alleged that Ramirez reached for a gun," the complaint said. Terri Green helped her son move Ramirez's body from the home's garage to the shallow grave, the complaint said.

Heaston-Corral later used Ramirez's credit card to buy a pizza, signing the receipt as "Stephanie Ramirez," the complaint alleges.

1. I agree, it would be a waste of your time.

2. Don't know enough about it, but if it's anything like the Ramirez one it stinks to high heaven.

3. It seems you are conflating a couple of issues here.

You emphatically denounce my purported suggestion that he is innocent (something which I did not say, or even imply).

After which, well, there really is no after which, because you ignore the actual point I was making.

If you mean this question.

1. On what moral grounds do you base your accusations?

My response was about this comment.

Read a newspaper. Christians don't treat people that way.

It was countering that. I don't need any moral ground to call someones remark invalid. I just need to prove it is invalid. If you don't want the atheist shooting I will give you the Tiller one, the girl that sued a school for a prayer and got death/rape threats from the local Christians, or I can search for a unlimited supply of Child Molestation cases if you would prefer?

1. Not sure what the "that way" was, to be honest. I guess I'll look for the 2008 reference.

I would suggest you still need to provide your moral grounds for making your judgement. In other words, why would you suggest, if what you say to be true is true, that the Christians did anything wrong?

Now I remember the school problem. Been there, done that. I'm trying to remember the Christian tenet being used by those who made the threats....perhaps you could help me? On the other hand, not to condone the threats, but what a complete idiot she is.

I agree 13, makes me very furious! However any female should NEVER be subjected to this . Especially after the fact she's been raped. Things such as this go on beacuse of lack of intelligence, culture and they in some cases are allowed to go on!  

If you haven't read it already, I recommend Nine Parts of Desire, the Hidden Life of Islamic Women by Geraldine Brooks.  Muslims attribute 90% of sexual desire to women, 10% to men.  If I remember correctly, it also takes 4 men backing a woman's testimony, 2 for men in cases of sexual misconduct.

The deck is extremely prejudicial toward women.  Outrage doesn't quite express my feelings.  Truth is, had she been 31 instead of 13, I'd still hate these perpetrators.

mmhaq,

If she really "Confessed" to adultery, how was that confession obtained? Through sanctioned torture by the law enforcers who should have been protecting her?

Confession or no confession, 13 or 23, innocent child or whore -- the action of the armed authorities stoning her was an atrocity.

EGBnTX,

You are absolutely right! 

thedoctori:

Happens to us all from time to time, at least those who have lives outside NV!

"please provide a list of Christian or Jewish groups,and the text they use to kill in the name of their religion. I will be happy to denounce them. oh by the way keep it in this century.thank you"

The Koranic basis for this is well over a thousand years old, as are the Biblical proscriptions of Leviticus.  As for the twentieth century, there are a rather large chunk of Americans who would like biblical justice to be literally applied today.

Check out any Christian Reconstructionist website, or just google Dr. Gary North or his late father in law, Mr. Rashdoonie.

The islamic community practices this today.  Jews haven't for almost two thousand years.  There are atheists who engage in genocide.  Most of them have been "reigned in" through the fall of communism.  Islam needs to be similarly curtailed.

 there are a rather large chunk of Americans who would like biblical justice to be literally applied today.

and how many have they killed and or beheaded I want a body count.

Islam is in the tens of thousands just this year.

I'm a Pagan I think in the interests of cultural and religious diversity some FREE THINKING EUROPEAN  country will give us Pagans ONE just ONE virgin to sacrifice to my Gods and Goddess they have not in fact been fed in quite some time and they are hungry.

most of Europe seems happy as @!$%# to let the God of Islam FEED on living souls on a almost daily basis. what about us Pagans, our Gods and Goddess should not be feed

my nonsense bull@!$%# is just as important to me but you don't see Pagans screaming at the top of their lungs.

and by the way we stopped killing virgins many thousandds years ago.( Found better things to do with them) but if Islam can why cant Tuatha De Danann have some fresh human blood. All religions are equal in the eyes of the law. I want my pound of human flesh just like Islam. ain't you glad Pagans stopped the killing so long ago. there was a new big boy of killing we just could not keep the pace ISLAM 

I beg to differ.  There are Jewish sects, both in Israel and, to a far lesser degree, in this country, who would be quite pleased to be able to stone adulterers.  The big defference is that Israel, as America, is a westernized nation that won't tolerate such barbarism for a second.

You'd be amazed what some crazies would do if anyone were stupid enough to give them even a whiff of power.

Xenophobes amaze me, too.

there are a rather large chunk of Americans who would like biblical justice to be literally applied today.

Yes, we call them Texans.

and how many have they killed and or beheaded I want a body count.

About 500 or so.

lol

waynef415 is that all time in Texas it's good but look at what Islamists did just in one week last month

Weekly Jihad Report
 Oct 25 - Oct 31

 Jihad Attacks:

47

 Dead Bodies:

237

 Critically Injured:

580

kpr--

It was just a friendly little jab at Texas, nothing personal.  I think all-time executions since 1976 are about 400.

And no, it doesn't hold a candle to what those nutcases on the other side of the world do.  The 'Weekly Jihad Report' is clever, is that your doing or is there an actual 'Weekly Jihad Report'?

 The 'Weekly Jihad Report' is clever, is that your doing or is there an actual 'Weekly Jihad Report'?

Robert Spencer I think runs it ,but am not sure

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ktzszDmjJvUJ:www.thereligionofpeace.com/+&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

agreed.

#12.1 Agreed!  GG

maw,

I love that--my dad always called my mother maw--it has a special meaning to me. 

You have awakened my curiosity.  What is the Religion of Peace?  I suppose I missed out the day that came out and now I am in the dark so to speak.  Please help me out by telling me what that is.  Thanks!

the religion of peace is Islam-----just not on this page

kpr37,

Thank you for educating me.  Having been raped myself when I was 14, I am a strong defender of females, not just women, but females of all age.  Watching the news and reading the papers, it seems rape victims are getting younger and younger.  When I lived in another part of Texas, I was a volunteer at the Family Violence Center that provides safe haven for victims of spousal abuse.  We had a woman come in that ironically, her husband was Islamic or Muslim-I don't remember which.  She was so beaten, both of her eyes swelled shut and she had knots on her head the size of hen eggs.  Another woman was held down by her husband while his drug dealers(there was more than one he owed money to) "collected" the debt he owed them by raping her repeatedly.  Some of the things I saw there would make Jesus cry.  One woman died as a result of the beating she received.  Sadly enough, the children of the women who came to the Family Violence Center were victims also because they saw their mother beaten and were scared to death. 

I don't care WHAT  religion a man is, NO religion should give a man the right to beat, rape, or even kill a female.  Jesus NEVER condoned violence of ANY kind and ALL religions should respect that and practice their religion accordingly.

GHG you have my utmost respect for doing that work! God Bless You!

jeffcisme,

The information I received may be incorrect, but I was told Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an athiest.  Is that correct?

Gray Headed:

She is now.

wmolaw,

Thank you for that information. 

I do not practice Islam... but I am fairly certain that any intelligent or moral person who does practice Islam in any country would not be able to provide an answer as to why this behavior is allowed to happen. There is no answer for atrocities. But you are right about more people needing to speak up, especially in America where there is not the fear of retribution for doing so.

It seems rather logical that most people on Earth should be able to agree on a minimal set of human rights, no matter what their religion, economic system, political system, etc, is.

100% agreed. Basic human rights need to be extended to ALL humans and should not be difficult to identify or agree upon. There is no multicultural explanationfor rape, murder, or torture. Perpetrators of such acts need to be held accountable, as do governments and religious organizations if they support such atrocities.

Perhaps Seddeka would like to comment in the above article and put some positive slant on it.

if the jews are not doing it, I don't think it will matter.

A thirteen year old girl was stoned to death. The family made the original report to the authorities (the fascists in power with guns, what were they thinking?). Yet, if this had happened in the villages of central Mexico, the family would not bother with the authorities, they would have hunted the perpetrators down with machetes and hacked them to death out of vengeance.

How do I know, because I have interviewed police and villagers who have voice these things happening. I don't think Islam will be accepted by these people who care more aobut thier family members then some religion that would take a victim, label her a criminal, and murder her in front of a packed stadium of people.

How is this different than the Romans dragging in Christians and feeding them to the lions as entertainment? Imagine, the stoning of a 13 year old girl, really just a baby in the world of grown up perverts who condone her gang rape and top it off with her brutal stoning? And, this in the name or RELIGION!

I think God-Allah was cringing the whole time, yet he allows man to make free-will choices on this earth, passing his judgements in heaven. Yes, we should do all we can to stop this kind of crap. It is man's duty to judge this kind if behavior on earth. So, continue to put this and all crimes like it on the vine, if it embarrasses these people's religious values, and cultural morays so be it.

Nice to hear from you again, worldcurmudgeon.  Great post.

James:

The more basic question is, do we have a moral, legal, or ethical responsibility to prevent them in the future?

The second most basic question, if the answer is yes, to what extent should our protection take?  Economic sanctions, or actual military intervention?

Thedoctori:

I am not as concerned with that as I am with death by a thousand cuts.

And nothing is going to change in Islam.  It is on a direct collision course with all other religions and those who don't have religion in the world.  That is what is scary.

Wmolaw,

I think we have a responsibility to try to intervene in some way.

One method is to try to educate people.  My Muslim friends (and others) inform me that neither the Qur'an nor Islam advocate this type of behavior.  And, in my limited reading of the Qur'an I find an emphasis on caring for others. 

Where do these radical ideas come from?

I know the Old Testament of Judaism (and perhaps the Qur'an?) advocated stoning to death for certain things like adultery.  But, as the article pointed out this was a 13-year-old girl who was raped!  And, I'd like to think religious interpretations have advanced over the centuries.  

James:

The Qu'ran has numerous examples of certain types of punishment.  But, I believe stoning comes from parts of the Qu'ran, but mostly from the Hadiths.  Without reading the Hadiths, one cannot truly understand islam, especially the various sects of Islam.

There have been instances where a son dates a girl out of his 'station' in Afghanistan, and the father, instead of having the son punished, allows his daughter to be killed for the transgression.

It is true that much of these horrific things also come from tribal beliefs, buttressed by the Quran and, of course, the omnipresent mullahs whose word is law.

the omnipresent mullahs whose word is law.

Indeed.  Law backed by the well-armed, personal militias of the mullahs.

Where are the "moderate Muslims"?  Why do we not hear their outcry and condemnation of such atrocities in the news?

I would like to thank our Founding Fathers once again for having had the incredible wisdom to separate church from state.  A Baby Boomer born in America, I know in every fiber of my being that I am one of the luckiest women ever to have walked the face of the earth -- just because of when and where I was born.

No matter where this crud comes from, it is horrific to the victims. If it is an objective of this country to spread the ideals of democracy around the word, yes we do have an obligation to speak out against this brutal inhumanity. Actually, if we can invade a country that supposedly has WMDs, which all the time we knew it didn't, and we then said the invasion was in the name of freedom for oppressed people, then yes we have a moral obligation for a physical and not ecumunical battle with people who harbor this fourteenth century mentality.

A battle is coming anyway. These terrorists who have their hearts so set on pushing us back in to the 15th century will find that we have the will, determination, and desire to make their return the favor of making their lives a nightmare when the time comes.

When the people, families, villages, tribes, and peoples are tired of being brutally treated by the those nazis who call themselves government, then you will see more terrorism eat away at the fabric of the societies woven by terror and torture. What I mean is the victim becomes the hunter, and the hunter the prey. You can bet the family and friends of this 13 year old girl do not accept her fate, but are afraid to speak out because they would face the same retribution as she. When the majority of these people become victims like this family, they will begin to strike back.

Look at the Shiits and Sunnis of Iraq, they are blowing each other up in vast numbers. Why, because the Sunnis are tired of dying in acts of terrorism and are now committing acts of their own in vengence. Hamas and the PLO are fighting each other, Hezbollah and the various Christian groups of Lebanon, as well as splinter groups of Muslims are at each others throats, and if Iran and Syria withdraw their support of Hezbollah, watch out, the enemies of Hezbollah will go after this group with blood lust!

Obviously, the world has not seen enough terrorism for people to begin screeming, demonstrating, and demanding an end to the abject stupidity of the behavior of people like those who stoned this child. And, she is not the only victim, there are thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of these ritual, religiously sanctioned murders every year we just don't hear about it.

LIAMD:

The powers that be in these countries actively prevent education.  How do you deal with that?

The bottom line is they have to want change, we can't force it on them. 

At some point they have to decide if they're willing to put their lives on the line to make a better world for their children.

At some point they have to decide if they're willing to put their lives on the line to make a better world for their children

and if this takes 50 to 100 years ? we should let them kill with impunity ?

Liamd:

So far they have decided they don't want to change.  Do we have any moral, legal or ethical duty to assist them in changing?

Isn't that a sticky question.  Using the terms moral, legal, ethical are all subjective terms.   Who's morals, and ethics do we use.  Since we just had a very bitter contest for president that fell into these lines of morals and ethics with both sides being adamant their side had the right ethical and moral candidate.  As far as legal is concerned show we where our constitution provides for overthrowing another country because we don't like their legal system.

We have no more right to change them then they have a right to change us.  What if they look at us and say we are the bad people because we don't enact the same kangaroo justice. 

I hate what they are doing as much as everyone on this thread.  I have a daughter, and I would kill any man who would commit this type of crime against her and protect her with my life.  But the question is do we as a sovereign nation have the right to impose our will on another sovereign nation for the sole purpose of disagreeing with their legal system.  So, before anyone trots out Iraq, our country is not in any danger due to their legal system nor is our way of life, that was why we went there, historians will have to decide whether we were right.   

My point is I agree they are horribly wrong, but are you willing to use military force to change their government and way of life? As I said when they show they are willing to die for their freedom then I'm willing to help, not until.

TheReligionofPeace.com
Guide to Understanding Islam

What does the
Religion of Peace
Teach About...

Violence

Question:

Does the Qur'an really contain dozens of verses commanding violence?

The Qur'an:

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."  There is a good case to be made that the overall context of these verses is defensive war, however, there are two worrisome pieces to this passage.  The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution."  The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah."

Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".  This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

"My point is I agree they are horribly wrong, but are you willing to use military force to change their government"

the never changing word of God,if it is,--------- God help us all

Yea, but the Book of Judges isn't much better.  If we lived by the strict Bible scripture most of of us wouldn't have made it past 16. 

I am trying to be objective in this debate, my personal beliefs are a different matter.  I see nothing other than our feeling of outrage that would justify changing them. There are many equally outrageous legal acts here that many aren't as passionate about.

If we lived by the strict Bible scripture

yes but we in the west do not

in many Islamic countries they in fact do that is the problem

see 11.4

I am a pagan in the Qur'an it is said to kill me,  my wife, and children I have a problem with this.

I joked about sacrificing virgins but the God of Islam is a hungrier God he is fed the souls of living humans on an almost daily basis

Tuatha De Danann has not in fact been fed in 2500 years or so and she is not raising much of a fuss about it.

liamd.

Abortion is an equally outrages act!  Done legally in the US 1,2 million times a year.  We need to stop both!

LIAMD:

You are merely mouthing "cultural" relatavism which is, in and of itself, destructive of societies.

Do you not believe that there are universal wrongs?  If not, and if our country goes the way of your belief, then the whole world will end up being barbaric again, and that would be a shame.

liamd

remember the Hadiths, it help fill in the blanks in the Qur'an it's all online  

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."  In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy.  This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

wmolaw,

The only point I feel needs debate is what are we willing to do about it.  Are you willing to send Americans to die so that their legal system is changed? Obviously, they have a different view of life and legality.  You want to place modern Judea-Christian beliefs on them.  I personally am OK with that as a Christian, but it must be done in a way that shows love and respect not a manner which they would likely perceive as us looking at them as lesser beings who need enlightenment. 

It is unfair to blame Islam or the Qur'an for this violence.

Personally, I think there is more encouragement for violence in the Old Testament where the Jewish "chosen people" are instructed to kill men, women, and children and to steal their land as a gift from God.  I thank God that even Zionists today generally do not practice that.

One can take individual passages out of context from the Qur'an to advocate violence (as I think kpr37 does in a comment above), but the book as a whole does not.  I've read about 1/3 of an English translation of the Qur'an, and the book emphasizes doing good, even for those of other faiths, within reason.  Surah 2 verses 62 and 82, Surah 5 verses 8 and 69, and many others illustrate this.  I encourage persons to check their local library or online and read a bit from an English translation of the Qur'an.  My Muslim friends fluent in both English and Arabic do state that the book loses much of its beauty in translation, as does much literature.  But, I have three English translations that all basically seem to share similar meanings.  

As a Christian I prefer the teaching of Jesus to love all, but Islam and the Qur'an both generally advocate peace based on my limited knowledge.

I have friends living in these places that are doing what they can about these atrocities.  This has been going on for ages.  My friends have houses where these women can escape and find refuge.  The women are, if necessary, nursed back to health and taught a trade.  Then they are taken to a place more friendly to them, but usually withing the same country.

Clo, is this rescue of abused women there part of some international program or agency? Is there some umbrella group that we can contact if we want to help? It seems the UN is indifferent, and the US state Department won't risk damaging official relations, so who is doing this great work?

wkb,

As you well know, this is a very sensitive subject.  If this information got into the wrong hands (the people that do these atrocities) the houses would be raided and the work would be hindered.  I can help you out with the information, but cannot publish anything in such of a public place as this.  Thanks for the inquiry!

I understand! Please know there will be many prayers of support for it! Thank you as always, for everything you do, and for just being so amazing and wonderful!

James:

In that you would be wrong.  And the fact is there is historical reasons, islam was created during wars of conquest and it reflects that bias.

LIAMD:

Do you believe in any right or wrong?  Is there any act that is "wrong," no matter by whom practiced?

Wmolaw,

Although Islam was created during times of conflict, Muhammed made an effort to resolve differences and achieve peace.  The Qur'an reflects that.  Even during the Crusades the Muslims apparently behaved more humanely than their Christian counterparts.

It is certainly true that Christianity was blessed to be founded during a time of relative peace in the world, in contrast to the conflicts during the early days of Islam and Judaism.

I will make an effort to read at least part of the Hadiths (and their background) that you (wmolaw) and kpr37 both mentioned.  Apparently these advocate violence more so than the Qur'an.

Even during the Crusades the Muslims apparently behaved more humanely than their Christian counterparts.

if you take the time to read the first book you will never make that statement again revisionist history is just that. you must look for the truth, and know it, when you see it

Hatreds kingdom will inform you about Saudi Arabia and the Islamist government that controls it

kpr37,

I will seek to read more of the history, including the two sources you mentioned.  But, I've seen several sources that indicate that Islamic rule over Palestine was relatively tolerant of other faiths for many years.  And, that during the Crusades those who were supposedly Christians committed worse atrocities than the Muslims had.

James:

Really, Muhammed only made an effort to create peace through beheading and conquering.  That is just fact.

posted twice

 will make an effort to read at least part of the Hadiths (and their background)

got them right in front of you

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/042.smt.html

I've been reading this for about 7 years. the more time I took looking into it, the more I wanted to learn. If you like Steven King ----he aint got @!$%# on this.

now not all muslims even know this horror is part of their faith. Thank Allah for that. But some clerics do and this brings DEATH TO THE OTHER we are in fact the other.  all of us as Americans must inform themselves.If not for us our children. 

I have no bad felling regaurding Muslims. An Islamist ideology however must be defeated by free men while they are free and not DHIMMIFYED.

that is a word used to describe a process that attemps to put Islam above all other religion. you may not question any part of the pure word of Allah. You may may not make cartoons of his form or likeness,under threat of death.

I can see from your posts you wish, with all your hart this was untrue,so did I.

What will your children say, if their children, still must deal with this ? 1400 years and counting.

wm,

Do you believe in any right or wrong?  Is there any act that is "wrong," no matter by whom practiced?

The simple answer to your question, yes I believe there is right and wrong.  But the point you are missing is that right and wrong are subjective.  They are based on personal belief. 

 I do not agree in any way shape or form what is going on under Sharia law.  Do you agree with the heinous acts allowed to go unpunished in this country? You as an individual can not change the Somali crap only the world can and the world is not ready to condemn Islam or at a minimum its radical elements.  Too many leaders still believe it can be reasoned with and compromised with.  Too many believe if we just show them we care they'll change.  Islam will have to be dealt with sooner or later but I am still confused as to what you think we can do about it as a few individuals in the US when we can't clean our own house.

Liamd:

But the point you are missing is that right and wrong are subjective.  They are based on personal belief.

So, what you are really saying is there is no right or wrong.  Surely you can see this, right?  If it is "subjective" depending on "personal belief" then there is no universal right or wrong.

Can't you understand this?  As I said before, it is called "cultural relativism" and is probably the most destructive, erosive belief in the world.

wmolaw,

There are universal laws in regards to science and these even change (rarely but it does happen). 

No there is no universal right and wrong for one reason, there is no one excepted authority on right and wrong.  Therefore, as you are trying to imply every culture in any given time periord defines what right and wrong are.  There are at least  a half dozen major world religions all have similarities but also major differences in regards to right and wrong.  Each generation has defined right and wrong differently.  I do not see how this is a destructive, erosive belief, what I see is the opportunity to better define and educate.

When perverted and used as what ever feels good policy then I agree with you.  However, as I keep coming back to we in the US whom many of us believe (wrongly in my opinion) are the most enlightened society of all time can not even agree on right and wrong in one country.  If this universal definition exisited don't you think we would be using it?

FYI, I don't believe you and I disagree on what right and wrong is.

LIAMD:

It is corrosive beyond belief.  You cannot think of one action that is always wrong, or one which is always right?

I think that is bizarre, and makes for an excuse for those who would practice barbaric actions.  All they must say is that it OUR custom, and you must then agree with them.

Again, because we fail from time to time is NOT an excuse for others.  Can you not understand that?

Bring it down to the personal level.  Because you have made a mistake in your life, is that an excuse for someoone murdering your wife?

Of course not.

wmolaw,

Wow, you can not see the argument I have made can you?  In my opinion you are so lost in the heinous crime that you can not pull back and see that it is that societies right to define right and wrong, regardless of my personal belief, which I have already stated. I can not demand nor decide what is right for someone else.  I can persuade and even beg but I can not make them believe.  That is by definition free will.  God is the only judge that matters. 

Bring it down to the personal level.  Because you have made a mistake in your life, is that an excuse for someoone murdering your wife?

This is a completely illogical statment and way out of line in this debate.  Shall I come into your home and decide for you which of your actions are right and wrong and condem or prasie you accordingly???

Liamd:

We are clearly arguing at cross purposes.  Enough. You may believe that no action is inherently and universally wrong, that context is all.  I don't.

And clearly neither of us will sway the other.

You misunderstand, I am not trying to sway you. I am merely argueing that while we all agree what happened in Somali is against our version of right and wrong it is not against their's. How do we change that?

I think personally there are many actions that are either right or wrong period.  Please give me an example of a Universal Right or Wrong.

However, I also see that while that is my belief it may not be someone else's and further how can I impose those beliefs.

kpr37,

Thanks again for the links to sources.  I still have not read Madden's book on the Crusades or Gold's book on Saudi Arabia you referenced in comment #21.20, and I've only read a few of the Hadiths.

Among the few Hadiths I read, however, I found none that advocated stoning a 13-year-old girl who had been raped to death.  Apparently there are thousands and thousands of Hadiths.  Various branches of Islam accept different ones.  I don't know if the majority of the Hadiths have even been translated into English yet.  However, the few I've read make it easier to understand how uneducated persons could be misled by leaders if those leaders took a few of them out of context (or misinterpreted them).  And, some Hadiths even in context seem unreal, such as the story of Muhammed marrying a child of 6 or 7, consummating it about 9 or so.

I did read reviews online of the book on the Crusades you referenced above, and may at least skim the actual book later.  But, from other history books in my admittedly limited reading, it seems that the degree of religious tolerance depended more on which subgroup of Christians or Muslims ruled, than on which religion.  For example, other histories indicate that the Arab Muslims seemed to rule Palestine with relative religious tolerance for a few hundred years prior to the Crusades, before the Turkish Muslims conquered it, and conditions deteriorated leading to the Crusades.

Based on the online review I read, the Saudi Arabia book focuses more on contemporary behavior by that regime's Islamic leadership, rather than on Islam itself.

I would hope that the vast majority of Muslims today do not tolerate the stoning to death of persons for rape, or even adultery for that matter.

LIAMD,

I agree.

I think educating people better is the key.  If all Imans become as enlightened as your friend seems to be, they can help immensely in spreading the truth about misinterpretations of the Qur'an.

jameseg,

The problem with Imams is that if they believe as my friend does they don't believe the others are even practicing Islam and are heathens.  They distance themselves from each other, i.e. like Catholics and Baptists ;-). 

Wow, I have to jump in here.  Christians, be they Catholics, Baptists, whatever, do not believe or condone this out of balance punishment!!!  Not in 2008.

The death penalty is opposed by many Christians.  Those who allow the death penalty do so only for the most heinous crimes.

There are real differences between bible doctrinal differences and criminal and civil law differences.   Most people in the west are agreed on most punitive laws.

There are just no cultural differences that could justify a horrific murder of a 13 year old rape victim in front of a blood thirsty crowd.

Education is purposely controlled and prohibited to women in many of these countries.

Amen Ellie!

LIAMD,

I don't know which country your Imam friend lives in.  But, I would think Imams like your friend would feel a responsibility to speak out against those who are committing horrible crimes (raping and murdering children, performing suicide bombings, etc).

I can understand why such Imams feel these persons are not "practicing Islam."  But, don't the Imams feel a responsibility to help protect the innocent people by speaking out?

responsibility to speak out against those who are committing horrible crimes (raping

Mohammad took a child as a bride she was six when he married her, and nine, when he consummated the marriage.He is the perfect man in Islam.

so pedophilia has a different meaning.rape look at the hadiths I think you will be shocked.

Ellie,

I was trying to add some sarcasm to the comment (Catholics and Baptists, since they always go at with each other).  I was not trying to say either acted like the idiots we've been discussing. 

There are just no cultural differences that could justify a horrific murder of a 13 year old rape victim in front of a blood thirsty crowd.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, because obviously the morons who did it don't agree with your or my view of how to treat children. And quite frankly it wasn't that long ago in this country that we didn't put a high value on life. 

It's not the women who need education it's the men.  Men are supposed to protect children not rape and then advocate mob murder. 

james,

You whould think, but they don't.  I have never seem him speak out against crimes commited in the name of his religion. I've only ever heard him dismiss them as non-Islam.  I have never heard any Imam speak out, have you?

Liamd:

It's not the women who need education it's the men.  Men are supposed to protect children not rape and then advocate mob murder.

And what about the women who allow, and even participate in these actions?

I'm sorry, but you are wrong in that regard.  It is many muslims who act like this who need strong "reeducation."

LIAMD,

I have read in the media of Imams speaking out against the terrorism.  But, the Imams speaking out that I know of are not in the countries where these acts are taking place.

I don't know any Imams personally.  I have visited a mosque a couple of times, but did not speak to the Imam personally.  However, based on what I remember of that Imam's teaching in the mosque, he seemed focused on positive, compassionate things and holiness, rather than hatred.

wmolaw,

You are right, I was not thinking of it that way.

james,

My friend speaks in the manner you describe but he does not speak out publicly against these acts of ignorance because as I mentioned he does not recognize them as practitioners of Islam.  I have tried to point out the hypocrisy but he won't budge. I can not say all Imam's are like this but the public silence from Imams is deafening. 

kpr37,

Your mentioning Muhammed marrying a child raises a good point.

Also, I will seek to read English translations of at least some of the Hadiths.   

LIAMD:

You are right, the silence is deafening.

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." --Sir Winston Churchill

jamesj 22.13 Aisha marriage and pedophilia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5df5cADJcV0

The Hadiths about Aisha's childhood marriage to Muhammed may justify such marriages to some.  It helps one to appreciate the culture.

Surely though there is some way to educate 21st century persons about the unacceptability of such a practice.  And, of course, even this would not make legitimate the stoning to death of a 13 year old who was raped.

Good question thedoctori.

Education is the key, but how to penetrate into regimes that tolerate and foster extremism, like Saudi Arabia?

Hit them where it hurts: Oil.  Let's stop buying it one of these days.

I see your point, but we need to address all instances of the shedding of innocent blood.

clo,

We are in agreement, I just believe we need to clean our own house before we tell others their's is dirty. 

#23 - LIAMD - You got it right...Aborted babies are the shedding of innocent blood, as well.  Now, how does the world begin to clean up its act?  Education.  GG

It is a mistake, IMHO, to equate one with the other unless our goal is to get nowhere with either issue.  If we can all come together to protect born children, we can -- over time -- educate about the killing of the unborn.   Respectfully offered.

LIAMD,
I get you!  The old mote and beam principle! 

If all of us do the little that we can, it adds up and much is accomplished.  I see no reason why all issues cannot be addressed. 

I think they can all be addressed, but I'm not sure they can be addressed at the same time or as part of the same moral equivilancy.  Bundling serves neither purpose well, I think.

Sort of like expecting the ungodly to adopt God's standards of performance.  First comes salvation, then comes the changed heart.  Still "thinking it through,"  though, clo.

Ellie,

We are on the same page, but say it differently. 

Ellie,

I don't disagree.  I was just drawing attention to the fact as Americans we like to condem the actions of others but allow the same if not worse to occur in our own yard.

Gotcha.  So many people just like to tack on to any injustice the old "oh, yeah, well what about abortion?" argument.  I am sympathetic, but I just find it ineffective.  If we know a particular tactic doesn't work, we need to change tactics.  If we don't, we should question our own veracity in wanting progress.  Thanks for the clarification.

We can even use rape as an example.  Look at the statistics in this country in regards to how many people (mostly women) are raped and never get their day in court and worse are made to feel as if they were the ones who did something wrong.

Or child molestation, why do we allow people who commit such heinous acts on the most defenceless and innocent to be allowed back onto the streets?

We should help if we can but need to be mindful of being seen as hypocrites.

Liamd:

Because our system of laws do not work ALL of the time, does not invalidate them, nor does it act as an excuse for the barbaric "laws" of other countries.

The FACT is that we have laws against rape, and they don't include the killing of the victim. Same with child molestation laws.

The FACT is that in many Islamic states and territorities the LAW (or at least those that carry out the law) says kill the victim.

Quite a huge difference.

Yes, it is easy to condemn Sharia law and the countries which practice it.  However, it is much harder to address our own wrongs.  My point which I have tried to maintain through this discussion is that while no one disagrees what happened to this poor girl was wrong it is hypocritical to condemn them and not acknowledge we have just as many serious legal issues within our own country that are ignored or even allowed due to moral relativism.  There are God given rights and wrongs and removing God from the equation allows moral relativism. 

I do not advocate religious law, however, I do advocate protecting those that need it and if we can't do it at home how can we ask, demand, or make it happen anywhere else????

LIAMD:

You are so wrong.  It is no hypocritical to condemn them.  Merely because there may be moments when our laws don't work, or are avoided does NOT mean that we do not have the right and obligation to speak out regarding horrific acts.

All that accomplishes is exactly what these barbarians want, silence.

Why would you possibly believe this?  No person is perfect, does that mean that no person can ever say what someone else did, anything, is wrong?

Wow, what a strange belief.

wmolaw,

Please don't put words in my mouth or presume in these quick exchanges we can discern one anothers belief system.  Why do you believe your verison of right and wrong are the correct ones?

I have no problem speaking out against any wrongs, but as part of moral/cultural relativism we tend to avert our eyes from home and always see the problems only existing somewhere else.  You seem to want to paint me as someone who doesn't believe what this seed about is wrong, that is not true.  I have been consistent in the message that right and wrong are defined by a culture/society at a given time, this has been true seen the dawn of man.  Since we (meaning people in general) reject God, we therefore reject the concept of universal right and wrong. 

You are both making very good points.  We would do well to hold this type of behavior up to the world as unacceptable AND still work on our own justice issues at home.  It's not linear.  Thanks for the civil and thoughtful exchange.

Doc, this has already happened (not the burying part) in Muslim communities in the USA and Britan. How much more goes unreported or reported locally as family crime all around the 'free world'.?

What a deeply demented belief system that condones such barbarity and sickness! 

Such is "honor" in the world of Islam.

Well, it should be realized that this is not true of all Muslim countries-- the majority are much more moderate.